This conversation occurred on October 20, 2025.

00:03
Holly Dorger
I've chosen A Stretch of Coast in Greenland. Midnight by artist Carl Rasmussen.

00:10
Holly Dorger
What captured me first off was the light in the clouds. There's kind of a face in the iceberg, and I like the idea of that being of a Viking or maybe a Greenlandic myth. It just puts a little extra character. You can give him a backstory.

00:31
Holly Dorger
They are such beautiful colors, and I would say hopeful colors. There's this hope that the boat is going towards. They're in a very harsh landscape. That takes some survival skills.

00:46
Holly Dorger
And that I can relate to. I can admire that through hardships and ups and downs and plot twists of life, you can still find the hopeful light and keep sailing towards it.

00:58
Holly Dorger
There's layers to this painting and whether or not that is necessarily true, you can create them as the observer. It's beautiful, but it ain't easy.

01:17
Gregers Heering
My name is Gregers Heering. I'm a photographer and guest host of Danish Originals, a podcast series created in partnership with the American Friends of the National Gallery of Denmark. Our goal is to celebrate Danish creatives who have made a significant mark in the US.

01:36
Gregers Heering
Today, our guest is Holly Dorger, an American Danish principal dancer with the Royal Danish Ballet. Welcome, Holly.

01:44
Holly Dorger
Thank you. Hello, hello!

01:47
Gregers Heering
Holly, it's so nice to see you. I should tell the audience really quickly that we have met a few times before. I had the pleasure and honor of photographing the Royal Danish Ballet a couple of times, but it's been a while since I've seen you, so I'm really excited to see you and to be catching up.

02:02
Gregers Heering
And I also want to say that I think it's quite ironic that you are sitting in my native country, Denmark, where you have had your life for almost 20 years now. And I'm sitting in your native country, the US, where I have been for more than 20 years now. So if you will please describe the setting, where are you and what's going on?

02:26
Holly Dorger
You have caught me at the end of a long rehearsal day. It was the first day on stage for our upcoming world premiere called The Art of the Fugue by Alexei Ratmansky. So I ran out, got something to eat, and then I found this mute box in Det Kongelige Teater. So I'm actually still at the theater.

02:50
Gregers Heering
How does it feel outside right now? What's the feel of being in Copenhagen?

02:55
Holly Dorger
Right now, we're getting some very beautiful fall days, super sunshine, which is very unusual. But you can feel the darkness, it's right on the edge there, it's coming. The wind definitely has arrived. I've got the full bike suit onesie. It was Day One transitioning into winter wear, it's starting.

03:18
Gregers Heering
I did hear you have embraced the whole winter bathing.

03:23
Holly Dorger
100%. 18 years ago, when I moved to Denmark, I said I would never do it, and now I go at least once a week, ideally twice. I love it.

03:33
Gregers Heering
Okay, great. And how does it work? Where do you go?

03:35
Holly Dorger
I go to a sauna club called Glaecier. And the reason I love this sauna club versus just jumping into the ocean is because I'm a little squeamish with seaweed. They have this pool that is the water from the ocean, but it's cleaned. I can see the bottom. I don't have some Viking creature living at the bottom of the dark ocean. And it's a beautiful view right by Reffen, and it's such good recovery for a dancer.

04:08
Gregers Heering
And you're coming home without any seaweed on your body.

04:12
Holly Dorger
No seaweed.

04:13
Gregers Heering
Holly, you are a bit different as a guest for this podcast. Usually it's about Danes that are going abroad, especially in the US to establish a career. You are the opposite. You are Danish because you are now a Danish citizen, but you are obviously American born and raised, you're born in Texas and then you moved to — was it Detroit?

04:36
Holly Dorger
Yep, exactly.

04:38
Gregers Heering
And you've been creating a whole life as an American in Denmark since you were 18 years old. And I am so curious because for us who live abroad from where we were born, there's always this lingering thing about where do I belong and where do I really feel at home? Where are you in that process?

05:01
Holly Dorger
I've lived 18 years in America, and now I've been in Denmark for 18 years. I'm exactly right on that line of 50/50. I have days where I'm so American. I can hear myself speak sometimes, or I'll say a phrase, and I'm like, wow, Holly, you're still very American.

05:20
Holly Dorger
I have other days where I'll be on my bike and I'll get annoyed that there's tourists just standing on the bike lane. And I'll be like, I kind of feel Danish today. I definitely still feel split. I wouldn't say 100% one or the other. But I do think the root is still American.

05:40
Gregers Heering
You were 18 when you were discovered or you met the former creative director of the Royal Danish Ballet, Nikolaj Hübbe. And for those who do not know Nikolaj Hübbe, he is one of our, and I say of Denmark, biggest ballet stars ever. Started dancing in Denmark, spent a great deal of years in New York City, and then came back where he was appointed the creative director of the Royal Danish Ballet.

06:06
Gregers Heering
And in that process, he brought you along from New York and gave you a contract with the Corps de Ballet. So let's first explain the different levels of being a dancer in the world of ballet. What is the Corps de Ballet?

06:21
Holly Dorger
If you take it in Swan Lake terms, the Corps de Ballet is the flock of swans. So the 16 girls standing in a line with their feet hurting but looking beautiful, that's the Corps de Ballet. Then you might have one or two swans, they're called little swans or tall swans, those would be the Soloists. And then you have the swan queen, which would be the Principal Dancer.

06:46
Gregers Heering
And then you can't really get higher than that.

06:49
Holly Dorger
You can't get higher than that.

06:51
Gregers Heering
You barely had heard of Denmark. You were at that time anticipating staying in New York. You wanted to stay in New York, but you got this offer. What went through your head when you said yes to this?

07:11
Holly Dorger
I was really disappointed at first. I had a full merit scholarship at the School of American Ballet. I had done one of the lead roles in the workshop performance, which is the end of the year school performance the year before. I could see it, I could see myself going to New York City Ballet.

07:33
Holly Dorger
I didn't expect to get called into the office and be told, you're not chosen for New York City Ballet, but Nikolaj Hübbe has spoken to the artistic director of the New York City Ballet, also fellow Dane Peter Martins, and Nikolaj has asked to bring one student back from New York with him to Denmark to represent the New York style, the Balanchine style, that he wants to introduce more to the Danish audience.

08:03
Holly Dorger
And that's you. And I was a bit like, what? I don't wanna go anywhere. I was dreaming of that stage with those lights and those ballets, and where? Denmark? What? Sweden? I definitely had a moment of, oh okay, plot twist.

08:22
Holly Dorger
And then I told my mom. And she was like, you know what, let's go visit. Let's go see what this is. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise and we just don't know yet. And it turned out that's exactly what it was. It's been wonderful.

08:39
Gregers Heering
You came to Copenhagen without knowing anyone and started working with the Royal Danish Ballet at the Royal Theater. How was that experience the first couple of years?

08:55
Holly Dorger
It was really lonely. It was really, really lonely. New language, new culture. 18 years ago, Denmark still closed the stores relatively early, like four or five o'clock. Nothing was 24/7, nothing was bustling and wrestling like New York, which is where I'm coming from at this point.

09:16
Holly Dorger
Because I was overwhelmed with so much change and not really knowing anyone, I spent a lot of time in the studio. And I would dance and dance and dance and dance and learn different variations. And that's how I dealt with my loneliness. I was in the theater after work hours in the studio because I had nothing else to do, I had nowhere else to go. That's how I dealt with it.

09:46
Gregers Heering
This is obviously a huge generalization, but Danes can be referring to Americans at times being superficial in the sense that they will act like they care or have an interest in you, but they don't really mean it deep down.

10:02
Gregers Heering
Now, my experience is a bit different, which is also why I've probably stayed here for so many years. I'm really curious to hear what your sense of that is, because I have a feeling that the Danes might not be the easiest to penetrate socially and be accepted into the Danish tribe, if you will. What is your experience with that?

10:23
Holly Dorger
I definitely have felt misunderstood several times by, specifically, Danish culture. I tend to run on happy. When I wake up, I'm already happy, and that has been interpreted as fake, as you say. No, that's just really who I am, that's me. I start my day and I'm actually, honestly, truthfully, excited to start my day. And I love my day and I love what I do.

10:53
Holly Dorger
It's a very genuine smile that you will always receive from me in the morning. But that's been misinterpreted. I would say I've been accused of being too much elbows, because they're like, well Americans, they're pushy and they're gonna push their way to the top.

11:13
Holly Dorger
And I understand where maybe that viewpoint can come from, where the go-getters shoot for the moon, land among the stars. American Dream. And I definitely have that ambition, that aspect of it. But people assumed that I would be pushing to the front of the room and all these things. And truthfully, in my experience, it's been the opposite.

11:40
Holly Dorger
I might get the blame because, well, she's the American, but maybe the other people in the room were actually putting in the competition vibe. I've definitely felt misinterpreted with some stereotypes.

11:53
Gregers Heering
And how did you handle that? How did you mentally get through that?

12:00
Holly Dorger
I would say I'm a bit of a black sheep in that in many ways, I feel 100% I belong in my world. And then in many ways, I feel I don't belong in my world. And so I've always been kind of this floater, is how I'm going to put a word on it. I could talk to this group of people or that group of people, and if I sat alone, I'm also totally fine.

12:28
Holly Dorger
So I've never been a follower and that's also been interpreted differently. People choose to, oh, she has blah, blah, blah, or she thinks she's so important or she doesn't care, da da da. So my biggest way to deal with it and deal with all the vibes that you feel in a workplace is that I create this bubble.

12:49
Holly Dorger
And anything that's in my bubble, I have power over. My bubble is gonna be hardworking, we're gonna go in there, we're gonna bounce all the other vibes off the bubble. Do what you need to do, do your rehearsal, then go.

13:03
Gregers Heering
I know your family, your parents, have been extremely supportive of what you've done since you were very young, and I presume that love is also what has carried you through exactly what you just spoke about. Is that true?

13:15
Holly Dorger
Definitely. And it's partly why I think I was okay with, I'm just gonna be me, because I always had that support in the background of mom and dad.

13:24
Gregers Heering
In New York, you were trained in the Balanchine tradition — is that correctly pronounced? — which is the name of a person who laid down that choreography, those steps, that style.

13:40
Gregers Heering
So I guess that becomes a really integral part of your body and how you move on the stage. And then you come to Copenhagen and the Royal Danish Ballet has their tradition in August Bournonville. It was actually a Danish person with a French father, who is responsible for many famous ballets and all that.

14:04
Gregers Heering
In my head, you've learned to play the guitar and now you have to learn to play the bass or the violin. How could you adjust to that, coming from New York and then having to learn the Danish tradition? How different is it in terms of technique and your shape as a dancer?

14:25
Holly Dorger
The New York style is very fast, super extreme, you go from stage right to stage left in two counts. Super athletic, really dynamic, extra shaped. You're on top of the count, you are there on "one" not "and one" but "one." I thrived in that style, I found it fun, I found it exciting.

14:50
Holly Dorger
Growing up, I sometimes found the more traditional classic ballet style, which is slower adagio — you have "... and… one." I would sometimes get a little bored and then I would have doubts. I was like, I don't know if ballet's for me. But then I went to New York and I learned the Balanchine style and I was like, oh yeah, we've gone up a gear, this is fun.

15:18
Holly Dorger
Coming to Denmark, I would say it is gearing back down. It's not as attacked, it's not as sharp, it's more blurred. I found as long as I remained curious — Okay, I want the head to be like this because this is the New York style, you push the cheek out, but they're telling me to tip the head under. Okay, why? What type of aesthetic, what type of feeling does that give to an audience?

15:47
Holly Dorger
Oh, that makes her sweet, more vulnerable, and then it makes sense why the steps aren't so confident, they're more demure. I always say less is more in Bournonville, so I have to feel like I'm almost marking Bournonville to dance it correctly. Versus New York, you could probably never put in enough punch. They would always want more.

16:14
Gregers Heering
So is it softer, the Bournonville?

16:18
Holly Dorger
Definitely softer, a lot less point work. The girl quite often is very sweet. She's very naive, very old school, classic, beautiful, all of that.

16:33
Gregers Heering
And how long did it take you to feel secure in that tradition, after starting in Copenhagen?

16:43
Holly Dorger
I would say, the more you do, the more experience you get. And so every time a Bournonville ballet would come up, if I was cast in something, I would also hope to be learning another role in the same ballet, to get the style under my skin. Ballet, it's a language, and you can speak loudly and you can speak softly.

17:10
Holly Dorger
Don't make it more complicated than it is. It is still the same steps. I sometimes feel like we can make it super extreme, there are differences. But you're trained in ballet. You can do it, of course you can do it.

17:26
Gregers Heering
Tell me a little bit about the experience of your first couple of performances on the stage at the Royal Theatre. How was the vibe compared to what you were used to? How was the audience different from what you were used to? What was that experience like?

17:44
Holly Dorger
The theater is definitely a lot older, which is so beautiful, completely fulfilling my American-girl-in-Europe vibe. Complete fairytale. Everything is so charming. The decoration, the Queen's Lounge, and the lady-in-waiting, and it doesn't seem real, like they still do that? It's very special and you can feel it's a special room. Versus America, I would definitely say the stage is bigger.

18:17
Holly Dorger
Now, the new opera house that we have here in Copenhagen, that stage is also very big. So more the Kongens Nytorv, the Gamle Scene, the Old Stage, that one is smaller than the New York stages.

18:33
Holly Dorger
And the audiences are very different. In America, we're a little bit more wild. And it tends to be a quicker response to a performance. The Danish audience tends to wait for that first person to stand up and then they'll stand up, and then they'll get loud. They warm up to it. It definitely freaked me out the first time I heard the Danish tradition of stomping the ground of the theater. I didn't know what that was. I was like, is something happening?

19:06
Gregers Heering
Sounds like an earthquake.

19:09
Holly Dorger
And it's an old theater!

19:10
Gregers Heering
So when they first start stomping or standing up, you know you've done a really good performance.

19:16
Holly Dorger
Yeah. Sometimes we have a program that's called a triple bill, which means there'll be three different ballets in the same evening. And usually an audience doesn't stand up until the last ballet. And only once in my career did they stand up after the first ballet where I danced Ballo della Regina. And I just remember I was gobsmacked.

19:40
Gregers Heering
That's actually my next question. How much does the audience actually mean for a performance?

19:49
Holly Dorger
I would say, what's super meaningful is the kids or any adult, anyone who reaches out to me personally after a performance. That means more to me than even how loud the applause was. Truthfully, you're tired when you get to that point and you're absorbing, but you're also shutting down, like you did it! Yes! Yay! Okay, curtain down.

20:16
Holly Dorger
So you do absorb it, but it's those that really take an extra moment and send you a message where I feel the connection. Maybe I don't know the person, but they've taken the time to write to me and so I always take the time to write back.

20:33
Gregers Heering
And is that primarily on social media they write to you?

20:37
Holly Dorger
Yeah.

20:38
Gregers Heering
I've been wanting to ask you about your social media, specifically your Instagram account. You're using that in a very, I believe, empowering way also because you're showing a lot of honesty. You're talking about a lot of different topics. What does it mean to you?

20:54
Holly Dorger
My social media has definitely been a topic of discussion within the company.

21:01
Gregers Heering
Oh, okay.

21:02
Holly Dorger
I've gotten good and bad. I use social media to show behind the scenes to give a, hopefully, humor vibe of — some days things go great and sometimes I drop the fan too. I keep it fun, keep it light, but also still very me. If I'm going through something, very, very often I will speak about it on social media.

21:31
Holly Dorger
I think it's nice to connect with other people that might be going through the same thing or need a little extra support like, Hey, I've done it too, we got this. Like I just went through that egg freezing process. And the amount of women that reached out to me afterwards with, oh, I've been thinking about that, and oh, it seems really scary, is it okay?

21:55
Holly Dorger
I was so glad that I did because I was the exact same person before I did it. I was nervous, I was scared, I didn't know who to talk to, who's gone through this. What about dancing with this? Should I, should I not? I like to really feel those connections.

22:08
Gregers Heering
I guess it's also a way for you to process your own thoughts and questions to the life that we are all living, dealing with the same issues that we all deal with.

22:19
Holly Dorger
I first started my social media before social media was what it is today. It wasn't very welcomed by the company. And I could feel this was a moment where I definitely felt more American. I looked at my friends in America and they're all doing it. This is what they do. They post about their ins and outs, daily lives.

22:44
Holly Dorger
It was viewed as — Holly just wants attention or it's all about her. And I was a bit like, yeah, it is. It's my social media and you don't have to follow it if you don't want to, I won't be hurt. It's not the theater's social media, there's a difference, this is my social media.

23:07
Holly Dorger
I always made sure to still say "pøj pøj, Royal Danish Ballet" if it was a premiere and the picture was gonna be of me in that ballet. There was a time when the theater wouldn't tag who's in the photo. They do now, but back in the day, they would put up a photo and it would be Det Kongelige Teater, they wouldn't necessarily tag the dancer.

23:32
Holly Dorger
And you can say what you want about that. I just felt okay, so then it's on me. If I wanna get me out there to search for other opportunities or search for inspiring connections or let them know that I am here too, then I'll do it. And so that was my solution to feeling I can contribute to me being excited about the show as well. Even though I'm not the poster girl, or I'm not the girl in the program, I'm here too.

24:03
Holly Dorger
People took it to the union and I got pulled into a meeting and I was just like, I don't understand how I'm hurting, how I'm doing anything wrong. And I would just repeat, you don't have to follow it if you don't like it.

24:17
Holly Dorger
And I think it was just a new concept and I was breaking out of the mold where, again, I was the black sheep and I've always been that girl. It just seems fun. I liked making little videos. I liked trying different turns and sharing it.

24:32
Holly Dorger
And now it's flipped. Now it's completely flipped. Kasper Holten wrote me an email saying, Holly, thank you so much for your social media and for how much positivity you are putting out for the theater and letting people know what's going on and your upcoming shows. It's completely flipped. But I definitely went through some stuff with my social media.

24:51
Gregers Heering
Good for you. I'm sure that it's helping a lot of people out there to see that even a star like you also are dealing with normal life issues as we all are. And you are open about it. So then you became a Soloist when?

25:08
Holly Dorger
Let's see, I got here in 2008. I want to say 2013.

25:12
Gregers Heering
'13. Okay. Tell me about some of your biggest highlights in your career with the Royal Danish Ballet. What are some of the performances that really stand out to you?

25:23
Holly Dorger
I have different reasons for why each one is a standout.

25:27
Gregers Heering
Can you give me three examples?

25:29
Holly Dorger
Ballo della Regina. Nikolaj Hübbe brought over the very famous idol ballerina Merrill Ashley from the US. This ballet was created for her on her by George Balanchine.

25:48
Gregers Heering
Wow.

25:49
Holly Dorger
I've read her books, I've watched her films, I love Merrill Ashley. So then to work in the studio with her for the four weeks or whatever it was, I was in ballerina heaven. I was so excited to learn from her. What made her so cool was it wasn't just about her ballet, she was like, I want you to develop as a dancer.

26:16
Holly Dorger
We were using the steps and running it and running it, but it was like, let's work on the technique. How can we get you to jump higher? What if you turn out more here? I walked away, not just ready to perform, I leveled up as a dancer, and that was such a cool feeling.

26:33
Gregers Heering
Are you still in touch with her?

26:36
Holly Dorger
A little bit by email.

26:37
Gregers Heering
That's great. And your second highlight?

26:42
Holly Dorger
I definitely have to put Christopher Wheeldon's Alice in Wonderland. I got the opportunity to play Alice and Queen of Hearts, but truthfully, Alice was just so much fun. You were on stage nearly the entire time. So much acting, such a dream world. And what I liked about Alice, or at least how I interpret Alice, is she's not necessarily cool.

27:07
Holly Dorger
I don't think of her as spoiled. She's just quirky and I'm quirky. So I felt I could relate to her, I felt I was a natural Alice. I had so much fun on stage, and then there were some new turns that I had never tried before in that ballet.

27:24
Holly Dorger
The original cast of this ballet was from the Royal Ballet, so over in London. Beautiful ballerina named Lauren Cuthbertson, she was the original Alice. I watched her video and she was doing some extremely difficult turns. I would go in every Sunday, on my day off, and I would work on these turns because I wanted to do these turns. And I did those turns.

27:51
Holly Dorger
I was super proud because they're so unusual and they're really hard and it's one thing to do it in the studio and then there's another level to do it on stage. The theater ended up filming Alice for a proper really well done recording, and it went into the movie theaters. And I'm so proud of that filming because it's one take, one show, and I did all the turns. I love Alice!

28:14
Gregers Heering
And that's actually really interesting because even though everything is meticulously choreographed and you have to really learn the part, step by step, there is still room for putting your own touch on it.

28:28
Holly Dorger
Truth be told, that was the original step. It's just so difficult that not all the ballerinas that have played Alice have accomplished that. You can make it easier and no one would know, but I would know. I was like, I wanna be just as technically good as the girl that I saw on the video. I didn't wanna disappoint anyone.

28:53
Gregers Heering
Alright. The third one?

28:56
Holly Dorger
Ooh. I have a Balanchine that was Ballo, Wheeldon, which is newer ballet. And then I have to put Giselle in there, a very old classical ballet. And I think Giselle is such a powerful story, everyone can relate to it. It always pops up at a point in my life where I feel like I can really use it to also heal myself. And so Giselle has been super, super meaningful.

29:28
Holly Dorger
I learned it from Sorella Englund, one of our super treasures of Det Kongelige Teater. She's been here — She's celebrating 60 years now. She's a gift. She brought out a vulnerability in me that I don't think I can ever undo. It was learning how to be so honestly yourself while you're playing this character.

29:55
Holly Dorger
I'm lucky I've known her for a long time. She witnessed and saw some of the hardships that I've gone through, whether it's been some bullying or a toxic relationship. She witnessed it firsthand, or at least she witnessed my meltdown. And so she would be like, use it.

30:18
Holly Dorger
There's so much energy and power and depth in what you're experiencing, use it because you will only create more depth in your dancing, which will make you more honest in your dancing, which will make you connect more with your audience, which is gonna make you a permanent memory in their mind. So instead of trying to fight it, tap into it. And I learned that from her.

30:45
Gregers Heering
I know that there is also a very special relationship between a ballerina and I don't even know what you call the male part, your dancing partner in the big roles. Who has been your main dancing partner at the Royal Danish Ballet?

31:03
Holly Dorger
It's changed throughout the years, but the one that right away pops into my head is Jonathan Chmelensky. We are basically the same age, we went up the ranks at the same time, and so we were put together quite a lot, from Blue Bird to Swan Lake to Giselle. We actually also did Alice, Ballo.

31:26
Holly Dorger
We've done so much together, especially while we were younger and now we don't partner as often. When we do, there's always that, ah, you got me. He knows me so well. He's done so much with me.

31:43
Gregers Heering
You trust him.

31:45
Holly Dorger
Completely, completely. And that would be Jonathan.

31:50
Gregers Heering
You have to describe the moment you were pronounced Principal Dancer. Was that expected? How does that work?

31:59
Holly Dorger
So, in the Danish tradition, they want you to say that it was unexpected, that it was a complete surprise. I didn't know what show it was gonna be or what night it was gonna be. I also feel it's a little bit of an insult to my own intelligence to be like, I had no idea.

32:24
Holly Dorger
Because before you get the title, you are working your butt off. You're not doing just your corps de ballet, but you're doing corps, soloist, and principal leading roles. No one works harder than that moment. And I knew I was in that moment. You can feel the vibes in the theater. You can feel if there's a push behind you, and I could feel there was a push behind me.

32:48
Holly Dorger
And then Nikolaj Hübbe brought the ballet Theme and Variations, which is one of the most technically difficult Balanchine ballets. So, New York. So of course I didn't know, but I knew, I had a hunch, I had a, wow, wouldn't that be such a cool ballet for me? It feels like it's for me, but maybe it's not for me, but it could be for me.

33:13
Holly Dorger
My story's a little sad though, 'cause I got injured right before my opening night. It was an overwork injury. I could get through a run, but the next day I couldn't walk on my foot. So there was nothing wrong. It was just that my foot was tired. So I actually dropped out of Theme and then the company went on a ten-day break.

33:38
Holly Dorger
And I spent that break rehabbing harder than I ever have in my entire life because I knew if I miss this window, the next girl might take my spot, it's hard to know. But you can also feel just the ballet, it moves fast, you grab opportunities, you can fly.

34:02
Holly Dorger
If you miss an opportunity, it's not that you won't get there, but it might take a few more years to get back to where you were. So I was really frustrated, really goal focused. And yet you don't know if it's gonna happen. You hope it's gonna happen. And then it happened.

34:18
Gregers Heering
Wow. When you get to that point, is it generally received with a lot of love? How did you leave that night?

34:29
Holly Dorger
It's a hard moment. It's a really hard moment. I think from an audience perspective, it's really beautiful. They get to witness such a cool and rare experience. It's just behind the scenes, there's of course always another girl or girls that want it just as bad, have worked almost just as hard, deserve it almost just as much.

34:54
Holly Dorger
Some people are happy for you, some people are fake happy for you. Some people are polite-happy for you, and some people are disappointed. Some people are mad at you. Some people are jealous of you. I don't know. I think I'm a bit of an empath because I can feel all the vibes.

35:10
Holly Dorger
I don't know if I've ever admitted this publicly before. There's a Danish tradition here that you throw the ballerina up into the air once they've gotten promoted. There's some really beautiful photos of this happening, and it's a moment that you wait for and you dream of. I'm the only dancer in history that was not thrown up in the air.

35:34
Gregers Heering
Wow.

35:35
Holly Dorger
So when I think of my promotion day, I have some scars that go with it because I don't really know why. Afterwards you hear different things, people thought because it wasn't a full length, that it wasn't deserved. It can get a bit —

35:51
Gregers Heering
Oh my goodness. Rough.

35:54
Holly Dorger
Yeah. So I have felt hated and I have felt loved. And so you keep going and I keep going and I would proudly say I feel very loved now with the audience and with my community and even within the company, but there definitely was a moment where I was hated.

36:14
Gregers Heering
Oh my goodness. So you became Principal Dancer at the age of what?

36:22
Holly Dorger
26.

36:23
Gregers Heering
Oh, 26. Okay. Soloist at what point?

36:29
Holly Dorger
23.

36:31
Gregers Heering
23. Okay. Just wanted to make sure we got that right. The beauty of getting a little older is that some of these things may settle a little bit. Where are you in your life right now when it comes to your concern or maybe lack of concern of what others feel about you or say about you?

36:50
Holly Dorger
I would say I've gone through a lot with the company, but finally now I think I've been accepted for just who I am. Because I will be the girl that will do my social media, and I will be the girl that will chase the side project because I think it's fun. And I will be the girl that's curious about, oh, she does a double pirouette, can we make that a triple pirouette?

37:18
Holly Dorger
And maybe before that used to come across in different ways to different people. And now it's just, but that's Holly. Holly's always off doing something, Holly's always talking to that group or that group or sitting alone. So I feel I've been accepted, and actually a lot of, especially the young ones, come to me for advice, which is really touching and it makes me feel, you know what, I wasn't crazy, I was just me this entire time.

37:47
Gregers Heering
And a lot of the things you've talked about is really what we Danes know very well as Janteloven, which is a term for something that's still preexisting in our society, that you can't stick your head out too far, don't act like you are better than the rest of us.

38:04
Holly Dorger
Right.

38:05
Gregers Heering
So I can't help but think that by insisting on staying true to yourself and who you are, not compromising on your way of being ambitious and having your drive, which I think by the way, is also why a lot of Danes actually go abroad to enjoy that kind of feeling.

38:25
Gregers Heering
I can't think otherwise, then you must have also inspired a lot of people along the way in Denmark. Maybe a little bit of that American sense of drive is not necessarily a bad thing if you want to accomplish big things in your life.

38:41
Holly Dorger
I think also as long as it's done from kindness, and from a genuine love or passion. I can see it in the younger generation now. Things that I used to get in trouble for, being in the studios longer than the workday, they're all doing it now. Social media, they all got their social media and they're doing fantastic videos.

39:01
Gregers Heering
Good for you, Holly. You got knighted by Her Majesty, Queen Margaret II. You received a Ridderkorset which is a huge honor and only given to Danes who have made a significant mark in whatever it is that they're doing. How old were you when you got that and what was that experience like?

39:28
Holly Dorger
I was 26. And I remember when I first got the letter, it was in Danish and I read it and I was like, no, is that what it means? I must be mistranslating this. Do they still do that? I was expecting the whole thing with the sword on the shoulders. It was a very cool experience. I was super touched, super honored. Part of it felt make-believe. When I met the Queen, so you meet the Queen one on one —

39:58
Gregers Heering
At the castle?

39:59
Holly Dorger
At the castle. And I was super nervous just because I wanted to speak Danish and I knew she knows that I am not Danish. I wanted to impress her. And actually, the Danish was, I think, okay, but my walk to her, I would be surprised if she's ever forgotten it because it was so embarrassing.

40:22
Holly Dorger
I had worn brand spanking new high heels and the floors are marble in the castle. I didn't fall or anything like that, but I took penguin steps, and it took forever to reach her. And then you finally get there, but she watches you the entire time because there's nothing else in the room. So you have that frozen smile and you don't wanna insult, you wanna be super nice and super honorable.

40:52
Gregers Heering
And what did she say to you when she gave you the Ridderkorset?

40:57
Holly Dorger
She was very sweet. She just said, I love ballet, I really have enjoyed coming to your shows, and it's lovely to meet you in person.

41:05
Gregers Heering
Wow. You've danced all over the world. Any international performances stand out in your mind?

41:12
Holly Dorger
There's definitely one. I always find it super inspiring to travel and meet other dancers in another theater and get that experience. I find that just thrilling. Last year I was invited to perform in Palermo in Sicily. Normally, I've only ever been invited to do a gala performance. So you rehearse your own pas de deux, you show up, you perform it, you leave and that's super fun.

41:43
Holly Dorger
What made this so special was I was invited to be their opening night and opening weekend, full length ballet of The Nutcracker as their lead girl Marie. And so you learn an entire production on the side while you're doing your Royal Danish Ballet workload. They sent out the choreographer Vincenzo to work with me and Jonathan. And we prepared it.

42:13
Holly Dorger
And then it was complete rock and roll style — flew out the day before, morning-of had a dress rehearsal, evening opening night, red carpet, and it was so exciting. The stage, it's raked, so that's terrifying. And I'm not used to dancing on a raked stage, so it was challenging, it was inspiring. I felt I had something to prove.

42:41
Holly Dorger
I was just so excited. I was so honored that they found me, that they asked me, that I was on the radar of being invited at not just a gala performance, but lead principal dancer. And that one is magical, super magical.

43:02
Gregers Heering
Very cool. You started out doing Scottish Highland dancing. What is that?

43:10
Holly Dorger
Exactly. So most people, when you say Irish dancing, get an image right away in their head with the feet, like [sound effect], going really fast. I didn't do Irish, I did Scottish Highland, which comes from Scotland, and I am not Scottish. Growing up, my mom would always invite a dancer for my birthday party.

43:33
Holly Dorger
One year we had a Hawaiian dancer. One year it was obviously ballet. One year it was a Highland dancer. And for whatever reason, that one really captivated me. And I asked my mom after my birthday party, can I do more of that? Can I learn that? That set me off on a complete journey that I loved, absolutely loved.

43:57
Holly Dorger
It is the highland kilt, the bagpipe, those big loud instruments. You do four main dances and you compete as an individual. You go forward, you represent yourself, you make it or break it. Definitely learned a lot of discipline. My Achilles tendons got really strong because it's a lot of jumping, and brought me all over the world, all over the US. Every weekend, we were going to Highland games.

44:31
Gregers Heering
And you became an American champion in that dance discipline. Is that correct?

44:35
Holly Dorger
I did, yes. At ten years old, I became the United States champion.

44:39
Gregers Heering
That is so wild. Only ten years old.

44:42
Holly Dorger
I was the youngest girl in my age group, 'cause it was for 12 and under and I was only 10.

44:50
Gregers Heering
Alright. Then New York happened. Tell us about that chapter.

44:55
Holly Dorger
New York was big. I miss New York. I love New York. I love the chaos of New York. I love the possibility-around-any-corner vibe of New York, but it was also scary. I was 14, so I was quite young. Of course I lived inside the dorm, so I wasn't alone, but I was without my parents. It was 66th and Broadway, I believe, so right there at Lincoln Center.

45:21
Holly Dorger
I credit SAB (The School of American Ballet) to one of the reasons why I am the dancer I'm today. It was intense. Ballet, ballet, ballet, with almost blindfolds, all day, a little bit of school on the side, 'cause you have to. It was just an intense period. And my dad was always very big on, you have to apply to college, you have to have a backup plan. So I did my ACTs, SATs, and applied for college.

45:49
Gregers Heering
There is this brutal thing that dancers stop around 40 — I know you've been asked this question a lot —

45:56
Holly Dorger
Yeah, I'll say I have my good days with this and I have my bad days. What I don't like about the way it's done at the Royal Danish Ballet is you don't have a choice. And as soon as you take away that choice, then I want to do it longer. It irks me. But I understand, it's also beautiful that the next generation comes up. I get it. I can zoom out and see it from a bird's eye perspective. It's just so concrete that it creates an irritation in me.

46:27
Gregers Heering
It's brutal. And I think for a lot of creative people, what you do becomes such an integral part of your identity. It is about reinventing yourself. You have some initiatives going on. One of the things you also really like to do is to write.

46:45
Holly Dorger
Yes.

46:46
Gregers Heering
What kind of writing do you like to do?

46:49
Holly Dorger
If I dream as big as I wanna dream —

46:51
Gregers Heering
As you always have, Holly, as you always have.

46:53
Holly Dorger
As I always have. I think I have a story that I think could be intriguing, that I experienced myself, coming from America, working here at Royal Danish, life's ups and downs, and all that. I love the idea of creating a fairytale. And maybe it's because I've danced in so many. I love a fairytale, I love a happy ending, I love a mystical creature. And creating a world for that would be really cool.

47:26
Gregers Heering
You've also created the Ballerina Thoughts notebook.

47:30
Holly Dorger
That is me sharing my behind-the-scenes secret weapon. I open it with a poem and the different depths you can find beyond the sparkle of the tutu, encouraging hopefully little baby ballerinas to really give it their all and dive fully in. And then I wrote a personal note to the ballerinas.

47:57
Holly Dorger
The notebook is a tool to hopefully guide students as they go to classes and get corrected every day, every week by their teachers, by taking a moment after class, sitting down and writing it down. I've always been a person that if I don't write it down, it's almost in one ear, out the other.

48:21
Holly Dorger
There's just so many thoughts that come up during the day or so many things that you need to do. To really get it in my brain and then eventually my body, I take the moment to write it down. And then the next day, I try to read it before I go into class. So I'm starting one up, I'm refreshed, my browser's been refreshed, I'm ready to go. Not from yesterday, but from today.

48:44
Holly Dorger
And so, here's some guided questions throughout the notebook — what am I working on? What improved from last week? What is my goal? What am I still frustrated with? And then some little quotes to help encourage. Actually, you took photos of me backstage and it was for Grand Pas Classique.

49:05
Holly Dorger
I just was doing a book signing on Saturday, and the woman that bought the picture of me, your picture, came and told me, she said, I have your picture. And then she showed me and it was your picture!

49:21
Gregers Heering
Oh my goodness. I'm so proud of that. I hope you are okay with the photo.

49:26
Holly Dorger
Yeah, I love that photo. I love that photo. It's me in the black tutu.

49:31
Gregers Heering
Yeah, exactly. Thank you so much for telling me that, that makes me very proud. You are also doing work for the Opus 1 Foundation. Can you tell me what that is?

49:44
Holly Dorger
The Opus 1 Foundation is bringing awareness and trying to help different communities through fundraising, but also introducing music and dance to poverty communities. Christopher Coritsidis, the director of the program, reached out to me and that's why I got attached to the foundation.

50:09
Holly Dorger
And it's touching, heartbreaking, incredible. And truthfully, you walk away feeling, I think I'm learning more from them than they're learning from me. It makes you wanna cry but laugh at the same time. They're doing good things.

50:23
Gregers Heering
Do you have thoughts about returning to the US when you someday will be done at the theater or do you think you're gonna be staying in Denmark for a while?

50:34
Holly Dorger
It's a hard question to answer. I will always have one foot in America because my mom, my dad, and my brother, they all live there and they will always live in America. It's also hard to say, well, yeah, I'm just gonna pick up and go because, go to what? So I have a life here that I love. I have friends here that I love. I'm open. If an opportunity came, if Broadway called —

50:57
Gregers Heering
Yeah?

50:58
Holly Dorger
What's so cool with having the double passports is I can go back and forth. There's no pressure to decide right this second.

51:04
Gregers Heering
When you allow yourself to be a little lazy, what are some of your favorite things to do when you are off in Copenhagen?

51:14
Holly Dorger
You hit what I'm working on. I am in the process of learning how to take a day off and how to make sure I take care of myself. I'm in progress. For instance, Glaecier 100% is one of the things that I do. I love Hotel Sanders, the cocktail bar that's there. Yes, it also happens to be right next door to Det Kongelige Teater.

51:40
Holly Dorger
I love my electric bike. I love receiving invitations to go to maybe events that I wouldn't necessarily seek out. I'm all for it, I'm curious, I will go if I have the night off. They just brought American football to Copenhagen.

51:59
Gregers Heering
Wow.

52:01
Holly Dorger
And go Nordic Storm! I'm watching them. I will say this has been an influence from my boyfriend, but I find the atmosphere really cozy and really fun and it gets me to sit down. All in progress.

52:14
Gregers Heering
Holly, thank you so much. It was really so kind of you to spend time with us and thank you for your honesty and good luck with everything forward. I hope our paths will cross again sooner than later.

52:26
Holly Dorger
Thank you so much for having me. I was so excited to find out I got invited to this podcast. Thank you very much. Lovely to see you.

52:37
Gregers Heering
For today's episode, Holly Dorger chose Carl Rasmussen's Midnatsstemning ved den grønlandske kyst or A Stretch of Coast in Greenland. Midnight from 1872 from the collection of the National Gallery of Denmark.